What becomes of the secu-ligious?

We've just wrapped up dinner, and my wife and son are inexplicably watching the unbe-LEEV-ably lame tree-lighting at Rockefeller Center. It's a two-hour excrapaganza featuring terrible canned banter and a motley cast of Whoever's In Town This Week, including what looks to be a boyband of opera singers.

At last, the Christmas holiday season that began six weeks ago has officially begun.

The season of buying shit goodwill also highlights another interesting wrinkle in the exquisite tapestry of my marriage: our disparate views of religion. I was raised to worship at the feet of the Big J.C., but it never really took. My wife, though, is a weekly churchgoer who is convinced that when times get tough, God somehow lends a helping hand (or at least a finger). During the layoff, for example, there was this time when we got really low on cash, and my wife was convinced something would break our way. I told her she was crazy and returned to biting my miserable, agnostic nails.

Two days later, I got my first royalty check from a book I wrote before we got married. And oh, the gloating. Am I even close to living that one down? Ha-ha! No.

MIC and I have been debating the relative merits of exposing our children to religion over at the O.P., and I'd be curious to hear your opinions. Anything to draw my attention away from Rod Stewart murdering another American classic.

Comments

[L Man]

I thought royalty checks came from selling one's soul to the S-man? (Or is that just Hollywood-brokered deals?)

The real question is how do you intend to make this schism work with the kids? Especially when Mom's deal produced cold hard cash and your's mere bloody stumps for fingers.

[Hank]

I was raised as Lutheran as all get-out, but like you said, it didn't take. My wife wasn't raised with any particular religious instruction.

When Boy #1 asks about God or Jesus or whatever, I usually say something that starts with, "Well some people believe..."

I just hope if one or the other of the boys gets bitten by the Imaginary-Friend-In-The-Sky bug, that it's one without too many overtly creepy aspects (UFOs behind comets, give us all your money, etc).

[roo]

It seems strange to take your kids to church and try to raise them in a faith if you're not a believer yourself. Is having faith an unquestioned good? Is it like broccoli-eating: something you might not enjoy but you'd like your kids to do for their health?

I think it's possible to build a hopeful outlook without believing in God. On the other hand, knowing the words to prayers and hymns can come in handy at weddings.

And if you do have faith, taking your children to church with you should pose no internal conflict, so this question seems to be aimed more at us agnostics out here...

[Lorien]

Have you checked out the Unitarian Universalists? So liberal and P.C., that it almost feels like cheating! In fact, at one point our church changed the signs on the bathroom to read Men, Women or Transgender. I'm just saying...

[Jess]

Natalie Angier gave a great lecture some time ago on why she's raising her daughter as an atheist; I found it very impressive and well-thought out. Don't know if it helps at all, but here's the link:

www.cfimetrony.org/transcripts_pdf/ Raising%20Children_Angier.pdf

[anne]

i liked that angier article, too. for myself, i'm atheist and i'm raising my son without church. i tell him all kinds of stories, from the bible and from mythology and everywhere. i can't imagine limiting him to knowledge of one religion or one belief system.

[L Man]

It might be easier to explain religion than transgenderism to the kids.

(Not that there's anything wrong with it, of course.)

[Theresa]

I was raised Catholic and now the entire idea of organized religion doesn't really appeal to me. However, nearly every single student at my high school who chose to join the local uber-evangelical, John Ashcroft-esque super church were raised in families that never attended church. This leads me to the belief that it's probably better to show children a religion that isn't relatively crazy (a la Lutheranism) so that if they decide they need to believe in God when they're older their first choice isn't an Evangelical, right-wing, hate-mongering one. That said, I grew up in the suburban midwest and I have no idea if these same influences are afoot in the City's high schools.

[Anita]

We're back at church with our little guy after most of our adult years being out of it.

The good news is that this is a very liberal church and quite different than either the baptist or the catholic churches of our past. (We are a mixed marriage!)

i like it a lot. But I honestly think it's because we're at this particular church rather than "church" in general. (For example, we even go to Sunday school! YIKES! And a recent lesson has been to pray for people who bug the crap out of you at work <--those are the actual words used. It honestly and truly helps...me, at least.)

[LOD's wife]

Ah, the famous Angier article. I understand that it can make atheists feel comforted, but I personally find it to be simplistic and either surprisingly ignorant or deliberately inflammatory. Not as well thought-out as I would have expected, considering how impressed some people are with it.

And thanks for all the suggestions, but we already have a church we like.

[Rachel99]

Well, I don't have kids, but I think there's sort of a gray area to these things. You can not literally believe in a literal old-dude-with-a-beard sort of God, or not literally believe in the specifics of theology, but still think that the church represents something positive and that it's good for kids to be a part of, for the sense of community, for the commitment to social justice, etc.

[landismom]

I'm an atheist married to a Jew, and we celebrate Christmas. How weird is that? (although after all, it has become a holiday of Capitalism more than anything else, so it may be okay) I think the important thing for us is to talk about the different beliefs that various religions have, and what is behind those beliefs (creating a system of shared morality), so that the kids understand that all religions are trying to achieve the same goal, even if they get there different ways.

[Sara]

I was raised Catholic and married my husband in a Catholic ceremony (sans full mass for the sake of so many non-Catholic guests). My husband attended Catholic school, but his family was the twice-a-year (if that) variety. My religion is important to me, not necessarily because I believe everything that the Church teaches is right, but because it connects me to my family in a way that I have come to value in my adult life. I went through the agnostic phase as a teenager and young adult, but because of the faith my family has in God, I feel close to them in a way that I would miss out on if I didn't participate in that faith in some related way.

My husband and I plan to raise our children Catholic, but we have no intention of forcing it on them. When they are old enough, we will allow them to make their own choices about what they believe, expose them to other ideas, and hope that no matter what their belief system becomes, they will grow up to be respectful and compassionate human beings. And if they need a tradition to help them find comfort in their faith, then perhaps, like myself, they might turn back to the one they are familiar with, the one in which they were raised.

All you can hope for, I think, is that your example allows your children to find their own happiness, and that it won't involve anything too heinous. A very thought-provoking thread. Thanks for helping me consider it and articulate.

[Dave]

It really doesn't amtter just as long as they believe in something which will add value to their life. God and Christianity are important to me but mostly God. As the Buddah says "there are many roads to enlightenment".

[the family man]

Certaintly is the opiate of the masses, be it religious or athiestic, and yet certaintly is so comforting, like, uh, an opiate or something.

I struggle with the religion/kid issue big time, because I do see some of the benefits of being, not only exposed to a religion, but participating in one. The sense of belonging, identity, support. And the Catholic schools are, let's face it, almost uniformly better than most public schools. But yeah, that bearded God stuff is crap. So what to do?

[Dave]

Oh, yeah, is secu-ligious anything like booty-ligious?

[the family man]

Make that "certainty." Shit, I was certain I typed that right. So where it got me?

[KCW]

Um, I guess this isn't really the point of the thread, but didn't the Rockefeller Tree lighting use to take place during a segment on "Live at Five With Chuck Scarborough and Sue Simmons"? How on God's green earth did it become a 2 hour boy band extravaganza? (See, I knew I could bring it back to religion.)

[Zach]

I'm an atheist, and we're raising our children as humans. They'll be presented with all of the facts, including our personal beliefs, and they will grow into their own people with their own take.
I just read that Angier speech for the first time. I thought it WAS well done (remembering that it was a speech, and not a written piece helps). And my 2 cents, I was raised Christian, and I went through the same kind of terrors that her little girl did, except mine were due to a fear of burning eternally in hell if I couldn't figure out how to make myself believe what I couldn't believe people around me were actually believing (that is: big magical force/bearded man etc.).
She may not have intended to be inflammatory. It read, to me, as a simple relating of my views of god. I am STILL surprised that people really believe in god, but I certainly don't look down at them for it, or criticize their beliefs, nor do I believe should they seek to 'convert', pity, or criticize me. Everybody needs something to believe in (including atheists).
I thought it interesting, the notion that an atheist would be 'comforted' by that speech. How so, I wonder?

[Alice]

Raising your kids in any way that doesn't jibe with your own beliefs sounds kind of dicey. The kid will inevitably realize that you're being hypocritical in making him go to church (or whatever) if you don't go, or if you go but hate it. Seems to be the bigger question is how to reconcile the viewpoints of yourself and your wife and then give the kid a consistent message. You two may agree that it's OK if you tell the kid, "I don't believe in God but I want you to go to church until you're 12 because I think it's important to have some vague clue about the Bible, and because Mommy will divorce me if you don't." (OK, maybe not the last bit.) Or not. I myself am a staunch atheist who married and Jew and even converted for cultural rather than religious reaons. Our kids are being raised Jewish, but we don't make them do anything we don't do, and when they asl what I think, I'll tell them. I see a value in going to synagogue beyond the actual words of the service, but that's something everyone has to decide about individually.

[zoep]

Although the answer from my parents when I asked "Do you believe in God?" as a kid was "don't know, don't care," we still went to Hebrew school, got bar/bat mitzvah-ed, and were encouraged to believe whatever we wanted to (as long as it didn't hurt other people).

I don't think it's a problem for parents to disagree about this. I think it's good for kids to see there there is more than one way to approach even life's most important issues. For example, my mom was/is a vegetarian for ethical reasons, my father eats meat.

I imagine it's different for some Christians, though, to whom acceptance of a personal savior is what saves your soul. That kind of thinking is pretty absolutist. Is that true of Lutherans, or are they more flexible?

[21stCenturyMom]

I commented over on the OP site which I guess makes me a dork since everyone else commented here and I'm the only one who commented over there.

Oh well...

[susie]

well, i guess i have to ask, if you don't have a belief in a higher being, then what the heck are we doing here? what is our purpose on this earth? and exactly what do you have to loose by believing? there are two ways, believe or not believe. why would you take a chance on it? what happens when you die?

[Zach]

Susie, I'll be presumptious and give you my answers to your questions.

What the heck are we doing here? Who knows? That's the big question. We all have our own opinions. I just believe that we are the result of a fantastic sequence of mutation and evolution over unfathomable eons. To me, that is a far more interesting and challenging view than that we were simply created.

I take as my purpose on Earth to enjoy myself and my family, and try hard to leave the world better than I found it for future generations of humans to enjoy and prosper by (hopefully with far more equality than in the past).

What do I have to lose by believing? Well, that implies that my belief's are something conciously chosen. They are simply what I conclude to be the most likely truth. I can no more pick and choose them than I can my height.

When I die, I believe I'm dead. Similarly, I don't believe that dogs, cats, goldfish, birds, or any other living thing continues to live after it's body fails. This compels me even more to 'carpe diem'. I satisfy my need for some feeling of legacy not with promises of an existence after death, but with a look into the bright eyes of my children.

[M]

I was raised as an athiest/agnostic in that my dad was an athiest and my mom an agnostic and we never went to church. My parents were open about what they believed and always meant to expose us to different religions and let us make a choice, but never got around to it. We did celebrate the Christian holidays (well Christmas and Easter) and never worried about the contradictions in that--my family likes a holiday. My parents were also very liberal and didn't have a lot of rules about what makes a good person. Well being me, I rebelled against them at 14 by being baptized and then confirmed as a Presbyterian. I am sure this was disturbing for my parents, but they supported it. Anyway, 4 years passed and I went back to my athiestic ways (although I know my parents would have been fine with me continuing to be Christian). This is just my way of saying that most kids will find their own way and will probably go through phases where they agree with your wife, with you, and others before deciding what is right for them (which will likely be in-line with either your wife or you as religious tendencies are not only socialized but also pretty highly heritable). Having one parent who is religious and one who is not seems like a perfect situation to explore questions regarding faith. Taking them to church every once in a while will at least really help them in English class (I always missed literary references to the Bible) and as religion is a big part of American life it is nice to be exposed to it (you can feel like an outsider pretty easily when you are young). When they don't want to go they will know they can talk to you about it, but the option and experience is nice.

[prego]

My 4 year old had an encounter with "HAY-zoos" during a tour of a Catholic school.

"Who's that guy?" he asked when he walked by the statue. I didn't go into the whole song and dance for him, because frankly, I don't beat the 'Jesus' drum. That's for my wife to handle (along with the small talk with the neighbors). I just said "I'm sure you'll be hearing ALL about him someday."

The face of Catholicism, is changing. People were still reverent as hell twenty or so years ago, while their kids were being diddled in the vestibule. Nowadays those allegations, along with the antiquated views on women, gays and sex have relegated the church to merely window dressing and folklore. I say we bring back Zeus, Hera and the lot. They were more dynamic gods with fun sexual scandals and a hell of a lot more charisma.

[Zach]

Ok, LOD, bring on the 'gun control as it relates to abortion-clinic safety' topic!

[Kara]

Religion is a sticky wicket indeed. My husband and I were both raised Catholic, and our families are still mass-going folk (our grandparents even have that whole shrine-to-the-pope thing going), we are no longer Catholic for a variety of reasons. Nor are we Christian.
We've discussed the idea of exposure to many religions, but for us it all comes down to setting an example every day. Sunday is just another day of the week, and you should strive to live your life in kindness and generosity.

[susie]

zach
huh? you can't choose your beliefs? when did that happen, and what rock was i living under

i plan on coming back as a dog. they have the life. just eating, getting attention, licking, and sleeping.

[Zach]

No, I for one can't choose what I believe in my heart of hearts. Don't know how. I just believe what I believe, I'm afraid. Don't know how to 'decide to think something is true.'

Not sure about your rock. Sorry.

[Yomama]

I'm with your wife on this one. Faith and prayer have pulled me through some extremely tough times. We don't go to church as often as we used to, though Sunday school was a weekly event when we were kids. I guess it "took"for us.

PS There's a difference between religion and faith.....re;igion doesn't move mountains.

[susie]

zach
believe, believing, and believed; these words are verbs, which is an action which is controllable. i think you are confusing this with how you feel, which no you can't control that. i think that's why i didn't get what you were saying but if you phrase it as how you "feel" then yes, i understand where you are coming from.

take care

[Zach]

No, I am not confused, I just disagree completely with you. I mean believing. I am far more in control of my feelings than my beliefs. I can take a hot shower and feel better if I am stressed out. I believe that tree over there is green in color, and I can't convince myself to "believe" it is red, even if it means I am going to 'hell'.

Telling yourself something doesn't mean you believe it, which is why 'faith' is such an important aspect of most religions.

Take care

[susie]

well, if you can't help your belief's that means you have to tolerate all belief's no matter how weird or strange, or disgusting they are to you. for example jerry falwell, who ticks a lot of people off, you have to accept him ,cause he can't help the way he believes. i don't get it. it seems like your shooting yourself in the foot to me, but to each there own.

[Zach]

I AM in fact, very tolerant, although I disagree with the validity of your supposed chain of logic there. I draw the line, as do many, at tolerance of persons harming innocents, which in my case includes animals.

As far as tolerating what I consider 'disgusting' (I'm curious to know to what you may be referring), if it hurts no one else, it is none of my business.

In short, yes, I do tolerate the existence of Jerry Falwell, with his hateful and divisive beliefs, but, (here comes the key), I do NOT tolerate ACTIONS based on those beliefs of his (like attempting to create a society of bigots through his speech).

Whether you realize it or not, each and every one of us social creatures is utterly dependent on this kind of tolerance to various degrees, because there aren't any of us the same. Hope this helps.

[LOD]

Thanks to you both for the passionate discourse, but if someone doesn't weigh in on the whole Rod Stewart controversy, I'm going to have to close comments.

Seriously, he just put out his fourth album from the "Great American Songbook." When will it end?

[Dawn]

It will never end. Our buddy Rod just became a father again at age 60. Why would a man with so little judgement as to bring a child into the world that he probably won't live to see reach adulthood, be any wiser when it comes to the appropriate music for him to record. Glad to know I'm not the only one who cringes at him singing oldies. I love oldies and I've always liked his music, but the two don't go together.

And I'm the parent who was asked a question by my child about Moses and the ark, so I'm not even going to get involved in the religion debate. All I can say is that any of the major religions give a child a good set of rules to live by.

[Chuck]

Quick Analysis:

Religion:

Pros: Free ticket to Paradise (I hear there are virgins involved if you pick the right flavor), Rod Steward won't be there, and checks in the mail when you need them most

Cons: Guilt and boring services (but you can catch up on your sleep), Crusades (old or new)

Agnosticism:

Pros: Won't miss a minute of the NFL pre-game shows and... eh, who cares

Cons: Pitchfork up your ass for eternity

I'm going with Religion - big payoff, little downside (especially if you own a Tivo)

[la_depressionada]

boy the 'rents think alot about god. what happens to the big buggies at one's house of worship? do they have a special parking lot for them? who validates?

[Ellen]

I wasn't raised as any particular religion. My parents were Lutheran, but the closest church was 45 miles away and was apparently not important enough to make the drive to each week (or ever). We drifted through the various Protestant churches in town while I was growing up, capped off by a fling with Jehovah's Witnesses (shudder). After college I joined the Catholic Church. It fits me. I raised my kids Catholic, mass every Sunday, all the holy days, the whole works. My son still goes to mass. My daughter became a Wiccan in college. I can't explain it. She's still the same delightful, thoughtful, and caring person as "before". Does religion make a difference? I don't know. I would say, let your wife take the kids to church, and you can stay home and be Homer Simpson.

[Ned]

RE: Unitarians
I resemble that remark!
Not the transgender part but the overly PC part as I was raised Unitarian and would know. Personally, I have way too much laundry to do on Sundays, but I respect the rights of all others to worship if and as they please, withing the law, of course.

[nancy =)]

my kids are now grown...we raised them with no organized religion, but explained ALL the religions to them in ways they would understand...my daughter, who is a 20 year old parson's student, could care less about religion...my son, who is a senior at a catholic hs, (oh boy, he didn't even know how to genuflect), has decided that he wants to become a jew because that is the one that fits best for him...

hope this helps...